Conversation with a Republican

[Below is a conversation that is all too typical of conversations with conservative Republicans these days. In general outline: there is a statement by the Republican; then I make a counter argument that denies the statement with some supporting reasoning or evidence; Sometimes this continues back and forth (notice below the length of responses by each side); Ultimately the republican says some sort of variation on, “you are stupid”, and that ends the conversation.]

[My comments in the conversation below will be in square brackets. I have corrected some of the typos and the strange usage and word order that often happens when typing on phones and other devices. Thus, any language issues are mine or just the strange wording that I chose not to correct or did not notice.

I, honestly, did not watch the video. The reason is I have heard the arguments before. The synopsis in the first email states the argument well enough.

There are two general items to notice here. The basic argument, unintentionally I think, is an attempt to prove that Democrats are as racist as Republicans. I suspect this is not the intent because who would argue such a thing? The other is that this is a revisionist history argument where we take our morals and try to condemn others by them. I state this clearly below.

Thus it begins with the tabloid headline. This states the creation of a straw man. I have never heard a Democrat argue against the history of the party. Also notice my correspondent does not actually argue, he only states things.]

From: XXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: May 22, 2017 4:25 PM
To: Dean
Subject: Fwd: The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party

this may interest you

From: “PragerU” <info@prageru.com>
To: “Friend” <XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 10:04:50 AM
Subject: The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party

[The video link I have deleted. It can be found, with other such links at prageru.com. the synopsis describing the video is below.]

{Click above or here to watch this video}

When you think of civil rights, who comes to mind: the Democrats or the Republicans? Most people would answer, “Democrats.” Most people would be wrong. As shown by Carol Swain, professor of law and political science at Vanderbilt University, the Democrats voted against the 13th Amendment, which freed the slaves, and the 15th Amendment, which gave them the right to vote. The party would prefer that you don’t know its dark 200-year history. But you can watch our new video to find out.

From: Dean Edmundson
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: May 25, 2017 at 7:11 AM
Subject: RE: The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party

[I found the statement really funny in a pathetic irony sense. It demonstrated an amazing ignorance by my correspondent of the history of American politics, the Republican party, and the current Democratic and Republican stance on the issue of race. Then, as stated above, it argues the Democrats are as racist as the Republicans which hit me as an all too typical lack of anticipation of the consequences of an argument.]

That is funny.

If you read political history you will see that the parties switched on these issues (meaning race) in the 1960’s. That was after Johnson and Kennedy grabbed the civil rights movement as their own and alienated Southern whites. (Johnson and the congress actually went so far as to pass a law to prevent race discrimination in voting called the voter’s rights act which the now conservative supreme court and the Republican congress have been systematically trying to dismantle for the last twenty years.) The Republicans then picked Southern Democrats and the race banner up, google “the southern strategy”,  and won the white house with Richard Nixon.

What is sad is this racist strategy has only increased but in a society that is amazingly diverse. Thus your party alienates rather than incorporates people. Your racist anti-voting laws have been struck down all over the country including the other day in the supreme court where even a conservative supreme court justice voted against them.

This is not to mention, back to the email, that the whole idea of condemning someone for something they did over a hundred years ago is pathetic and all too prevalent in this society we live in by all too many people Democrats and Republicans included. I suppose you condemn Washington, Jefferson and Madison for their slave holding?

Try again, but read some history first. Since you claim to only read history and not fiction and still come up with tripe like this you may wish to read fiction for awhile (oh wait, you are listening to Fox news so you do get a lot of fiction there).

Check out my blog on the subject at deanedmundson.net,  you will disagree with all of it I am sure but it could be a fun discussion.

Dean

From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: May 25, 2017 7:38 AM
To: Dean
Subject: Re: The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party

The dems voted against the civil rights law then when it passed they did not enforce it, your information comes from the liberal sources and is not true

From: Dean
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2017 5:00:34 PM
Subject: RE: The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party

I do wish you would check your facts before accusing people of ignorance.

This is the voting rights act (https://www.google.ca/search?q=voter+rights+act+1964+vote&rlz=1C1ZKTG_enCA705CA705&oq=voter+&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.6759j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=voter+rights+act+1965+vote+count) :

“When the Voting Rights Act hit the floor in 1965, the vote results mirrored those of the Civil Rights Act. In the House, the measure passed by a 333-85 margin, with 78 percent of Democrats backing it (221 yeas and 61 nays) and 82 percent of Republicans backing it (112 yeas to 24 nays).”

Notice Democrats and Republicans voting for the act overwhelmingly. This was the catalyst that began the end of bipartisan work, and actual democracy, in congress and America.

This the Civil rights act of 1964 broken down by party and region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964#Vote_totals) :

By party and region

Note: “Southern”, as used in this section, refers to members of Congress from the eleven states that made up the Confederate States of America in the American Civil War. “Northern” refers to members from the other 39 states, regardless of the geographic location of those states.

The original House version:

  • Southern Democrats: 8–87   (7–93%)
  • Southern Republicans: 0–10   (0–100%)
  • Northern Democrats: 145–9   (94–6%)
  • Northern Republicans: 138–24   (85–15%)

The Senate version:

Again notice how a large majority of both parties passed the bill. Notice all, save one, of the southerners of both parties voted against the bill.

It was these two bills that passed the congress that led to the southern strategy I mentioned below that you should look up before you embarrass yourself by spouting the ignorance that you accuse others of. The Southern Democrats who voted en masse against both bills left the Democratic party and were then sweettalked by the Republicans in the Southern strategy. Thus began the racist policies that have become so prevalent in the current Republican party. After this the so-called Christian right also joined the now racist party in an attempt to get certain laws overturned like roe v wade and to overturn rulings against prayer in school, for sex ed., for creationism, and other separation of church and state issues. (thus, in my opinion destroying the credibility of Christianity in America as well as the Republican party).

The fact the government did not go all out to implement these two laws is irrelevant. The South was going to do nothing but resist such an attempt. Great progress was made over time and these two laws were used to give the progress a podium to start from. Your party, the current Republican party, is the party trying to take things back to the 1950’s in America and thus demonstrating its ignorance of the country and the people who live here.

I appreciate that you actually tried to use arguments, of a sort, here that you seem unable to attempt on facebook. You would do well to google your ideas before you spout them. The above links come up immediately with no need to sift much to find the data.

Oh, by the way, you can tell where you get your ideas from by the use of the tabloid headline wording used in the subject line of this email. When you see headlines that use emotional words you really should know to question the statements. They are almost always false, taken out of any reasonable context, or cherry picked like this one is.

Dean

From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: May 26, 2017 6:49 PM
To: Dean
Subject: Re: The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party

Don’t think your info is correct Republicans passed the civil rights act, Dems voted against it. At any rate the Dems would not enforce it.

[I though maybe he would look at the evidence here but, alas, not. I think at this point there are a number of things going on in the Republican brain. Several logical dissonances come to mind.

One, The Republican thinks, if the information I received is not accurate or is selective to make a biased argument then my source of other information may be the same. This leads down a difficult road for anyone. It brings up questions about how one can be duped; how intelligent one is; what other ideas one holds are now not accurate.  

Two, the consequences of this line of questioning also brings up, to the Republican, the difficulty of having to admit that the other side may not be as bad as they have been told. Which leads to the possibility that “we” are not much different than “they” or even the idea that “they” may have been right.

Three, the fundamental idea that one is not as smart, informed, or righteous as one likes to think. The fundamental make-up of our psyche is at stake here, at least one thinks it is, and that is a scary prospect for anyone. The crumbling of our preconceptions is difficult and we will do almost anything to avoid their destruction. ]

From: Dean
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 10:10:44 AM
Subject: RE: The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party

[I go back to give more detail of the record.]

You should look up the congressional record. I never said Republicans did not vote for the acts. You said Democrats voted against the acts which is only true of Southern Democrats. Check this link out. It has every vote in a very clear format. You will notice that fewer Republicans voted against the act than Democrats. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/88-1964/s409

Stop getting your information from one source. When a statement is made that is extreme I always see where it came from. Any extreme statement is probably bullshit and so I try to find other sources that support it or not and then decide.

The point in this conversation is that the Republican party before these two acts was the party of the North. It had been the party of the North since Lincoln’s election. The Democrats had a large and powerful Southern contingency since before the civil war. After these two acts passed the Republican party started the Southern strategy that moved the racist Southern Democrats to the Republicans and it has been down hill from there (though you do not recognize the deterioration).

You, and your fellow republicans (and liberals all too often), would do well to get over your self-righteousness. The fact is Democracy allows the country to correct its own flaws—or at least it used to be able to. Since the Republicans have gained power in congress (Clinton administration and on)  they have forced the institution to try to function as a parliamentary Democracy which it cannot do since it is not designed as such. You cannot run the country without compromise and YOU will not compromise. You need to look at all extreme views and see if they have any merit, most do not (I would say none), have any merit. Most views that point the holier-than-thou finger are being selective. Your entire argument is exactly that.

You want to justify your racism (although I think it is your party’s racism and not yours) by saying the Democrats are worse without actually looking at the record of votes before hand. In the 60’s both parties supported the acts referred to (Democrats more than Republicans in fact). If you had thought about your statement you would have known it did make any sense on its face because there is no logical way a major piece of legislation could pass congress without bi-partisan support. That should have tweaked the idea that the statement was false, or exaggerated, and you should have then looked, as I did, for evidence of the vote. As you should have known, even now when Republicans have a majority in both houses, it is very difficult to get enough votes in line to pass a controversial piece of legislation. That should have set off your bullshit meter and sent you to the evidence as it did me.

Dean

From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: May 28, 2017 10:27 AM
To: Dean
Subject: Re: The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party

I do get the truth from most of the conservative sources like fox news. I do not get my info from the liberal media such as ABC, NBC, MSNBC or CNN. They lie all the time. New York Times is one of the worst.

From: Dean
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: May 28, 2017 at 12:51 PM
Subject: RE: The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party

Well, since your sources deceived you on the vote on the civil rights act, maybe you should question them before you repeat them. At the very least you should always question “us v. them” statements by any news, op ed, or study. You should always question any article that uses any language that has a headline implying “we” are better than “they” are. Most of the time, like the headline that began this conversation, the headline and the article are selective in their purpose (as was this one) or down right false. Truth is typically in the middle which makes is difficult but not impossible to find. Leaning to one side or another is fine but anything that implies or, as you always do, states that “we” are always right and “they” are always wrong, no matter which sides those are, is always wrong and will destroy Democracy.

Keep in mind that Satan used god’s words to deceive Eve. And, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Your sources of information re-affirm your beliefs and that is why you trust them. But what if they are selective, as all news media and people are, or wrong, as the source of your article was? A little bit of skepticism with be better for you and for the country.

Dean

From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: May 28, 2017 1:18 PM
To: Dean
Subject: Re: The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party

No point in responding to you as the truth doesn’t matter the video was fact.

 [This is my usual response to the above message and ends the correspondence. What exactly is not factual about my argument. The normal response to this is silence as was the case here.]

Ah, the mantra of “you are stupid….”

Why do you give up so easily?

Are you saying the vote I quoted to you is false?

Are you saying there was no Southern Strategy by the 1960’s republican party?

What is it that is the truth that I am not understanding?

Dean

[Conclusion:

Notice there is no argument made here against any of the actual votes I show. The mantra is you-are-stupid. Well, if all else fails, call them names. I think the reason most of the arguments I have with Republicans end this way is the fear they have of rethinking their thoughts and ideas if they give any ground on any one idea they hold. They are afraid, on a sub-conscious level of the need to rethink all their ideas. Their logic is, they cannot be wrong, therefore they are not wrong.]

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